SPIEGEL:

Mr. President, a new wave of anti-Americanism has swept over the Muslim world due to the disclosure of prisoner abuse at Guantanamo Bay and at Bagram. Is it becoming more and more difficult to justify the alliance with the US?

Musharraf: Those revelations do create problems. The most important incident was the desecration of the Holy Koran, which no Muslim can tolerate. This alarmed the Muslim world and every government, especially in Pakistan.

SPIEGEL: Is anti-Americanism still on the rise in Pakistan?

Musharraf: It erupts and it has a certain time frame. But we have a strategic direction, that does not get affected.

SPIEGEL: The festering wound for the Muslim world is Iraq.

Musharraf: Initially, when Iraq was attacked, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that Saddam was a cruel leader. But the military operations were not focused on the center of gravity, as we say in military terms. The centrer of gravity was one individual, Saddam Hussein. The whole action should have been focused on him, but it was focused on the whole country. That had a very negative impact, because it created the impression that a Muslim country was being invaded. SPIEGEL: But for quite some time the situation has been different, Iraqi Muslims are being killed by Muslim terrorists. Is al-Qaida focusing entirely on Iraq?

Musharraf: An organisation like al-Qaida is well-knit around the world. In fact, all other terrorist groups have joined them. Their interest is to attack the US forces or Western forces. They are now concentrated there.

SPIEGEL: The question the Pentagon and the White House keep on posing is: What do the insurgents want? They are killing US soldiers and civilians, but what are they aiming at?

Musharraf: A majority of Iraqi people, I am sure, want a stable, unified, integrated Iraq, to be run peacefully. But since these insurgents have entered the fray, whoever wants to join the government and whoever shows he's on the side of US, becomes the enemy. So a frontline is being drawn there. I don't think they have any agenda for Iraq. They have an agenda against the United States.

SPIEGEL: Does this shift of the terrorists to Iraq influence your fight in your country?

Musharraf: There is some indication that terrorists from here are shifting to Iraq. Then we also got information according to which they were asking for reinforcement here and for financial support, because we really have pushed them against the wall.

SPIEGEL: Pakistan has often been criticised by the West for only hunting down Osama bin Laden half-heartedly. What is your response to that?

Musharraf: I'm very annoyed, frankly. Who is fighting al-Qaida other than Pakistan? It is only Pakistan which has eliminated over seven hundred terrorists from cities and over three hundred or four hundred from the mountains. During the war in Afghanistan, al-Qaida shifted and they came into Pakistan and we bagged something like over two hundred or two hundred and fifty of them in the initial stage. Then we started an operation bringing in the military to the tribal agencies of South Waziristan.

SPIEGEL: Who are the terrorists up there nowadays and what kind of operations have you launched?

Musharraf: Mainly foreigners, non-Afghan, non-Pakistani, who came into this part of the world during the invasion by the Soviet Union. For ten years they were brought inside by the US, by the West. The Jihad started there.

SPIEGEL: To beat the Russians.

Musharraf: Yes. You come from Germany, so let me tell you a little story. I have seen a piece of the German Berlin Wall presented to a former Chief of Intelligence here. The caption is very interesting: "To one who struck the first blow". For the Berlin Wall to be dismantled, the first blow was struck in Afghanistan.

All these people shifted their bases here into our cities and into our mountains. We got over seven hundred, which included all the important figures like Khalid Al-Sheikh and Abu Obaida.

SPIEGEL: After a bunch of terrorists were caught in the cities, the other ones pulled back to the mountains again?

Musharraf: Indeed, they shifted into the mountains and we launched our military operations there.

SPIEGEL: When was that?

Musharraf: The first operation was launched in October 2003, but then regular operations started in January 2004. Originally we were not sure how many al-Qaida were there. This is a mountainous region; there are no roads, no tracks. There are seven tribal agencies the military has never been inside. This is an inaccessible area. So we moved into an area which we didn't know at all.

SPIEGEL: Are you suggesting that up to that moment no Pakistani soldier had ever set foot on the soil of that part of your country?

Musharraf: Yes, it was the first time in history. Even the British had left it alone.

SPIEGEL: Did you get support from the tribes?

Musharraf: Yes. We contacted them and we were welcomed in all tribal agencies. We launched operations in about four valleys. These were their bases, their sanctuaries in South Waziristan, the southernmost of the seven agencies. We started operations in Wana valley and then we went on, and we have dislodged them.

SPIEGEL: How did the army manage to do that? Have they got helicopters now?

Musharraf: Yes. In major operations, we have to surround the place, and then we start searching and then gradually establishing intelligence, human and tactical. We wanted to hear whatever they were saying, and see what they were writing on their computers.

SPIEGEL: They don't use mobile phones any longer?

Musharraf: At that time they were still using them. Then we were surveilling them from the air. That is how we started launching these operations in the valley because we got the intelligence that they were there. These valleys were being used by them as command and control bases, because there were tunnels to escape into.

SPIEGEL: Were these tunnels dug prior 9/11 or afterwards?

Musharraf: I am reasonably sure after 9/11. In one of the valleys there were certain compounds where we got two truckloads of computers, discs and TV-sets. They were using this place as their propaganda base. We killed many of them. When we are operating in any area, we know we have to break their vertical and horizontal communication links. We broke their homogeneity.

SPIEGEL: Let's suppose, in a little village with a hundred people, there are three foreigners living in the houses of the mayor, the baker and the teacher. Do they bribe them, for example, do they pay them an extremely high rent?

Musharraf: Some people have a religious motivation for harboring them. Others simply do it for the money. They were charging thousands of dollars from them and the terrorists had access to money.

SPIEGEL: How do they get money in the mountain area? You can't probably transfer it from a bank account?

Musharraf: I really do not know, maybe by personal contacts. We knew when anyone communicated. We knew exactly from which house he was operating.

SPIEGEL: As we have come to know, terrorists usually adapt quickly to new circumstances.

Musharraf: They stopped talking on the phone, they started contact by couriers. The last one that we caught is the third-in-charge Abu Faraj Al-Libi. He was in the mountains. They were running the whole show through a courier system and this was the first time we had broken through into it. We caught about fourteen couriers. And the ISI keeps telling me that they have earned about $30 million bounty money in one week.

SPIEGEL: How was Al-Libi living in the village? Was he on his own or in a group?

Musharraf: We do not know exactly. We are trying to establish links. He was in contact with Al-Zawari or Osama bin Laden. He was certainly functioning with a lot of people in various places.

SPIEGEL: Is he being interrogated right now, and are you making him speak?

Musharraf: He gave us leads on those 14 couriers and a lot of information, which we are sharing with others.

SPIEGEL: What is the situation right now in South Waziristan?

Musharraf: There are roads now. There is a political agent to the agencies, who comes directly under the Governor of North West Frontier Province. The Governor is responsible to the President. The army has its headquarters in Peshawar and they have these troops deployed mainly in South Waziristan, but many troops also in other tribal agencies. We are spending millions of rupees and we are also providing aid towards roads, schools, colleges, also for girls, and for medical care. Then we are trying to improve their water management and agriculture.

SPIEGEL: Now the billion dollar question. Where is Osama bin Laden? Is he alive?

Part Two: The Hunt for bin Laden

Musharraf: Yes, he is alive. He is probably in the border belt, where it is so easy to shift on either side. Then there are some areas where there are no operations, so maybe he could shift there.

SPIEGEL: Does the army also shift from Pakistan to Afghanistan?

Musharraf: It is a vast area. The military is not on the Afghan side in large numbers to launch operations all along the area simultaneously. However, with the raising of the Afghan National Army, the number is expanding. They are the ones who should be taking care of those areas.

SPIEGEL: Are there any foreign troops in this area, especially Americans?

Musharraf: This is intelligence work rather than operational.

SPIEGEL: Should we be prepared for many years of looking for Osama bin Laden?

Musharraf: Think of how long Che Guevara could not be traced. This is the first time we have gone into this inhospitable area. We are improving, we are going ahead, we are moving along.

SPIEGEL: Have you ever again got as close to Bin Laden as in Tora Bora in November 2001, when, as far as we know, he was bribing those who could have handed him over?

Musharraf: I can't say whether he was bribing them. There are certain people who harbor him for other reasons than money. There may still be people who are harboring him and not telling. So it is not a black-and-white situation, but I think we are better off and better placed now.

SPIEGEL: Do you think he is still the mastermind of the world-wide terrorism network?

Musharraf: As I said, vertical and horizontal linkages are badly affected, so it seems unlikely that this man sitting in the mountains is controlling things in Iraq, Palestine and everywhere in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

SPIEGEL: Wherever he may be, we know that when al-Qaida suffers setbacks, it recovers and keeps on attacking, and arrested leaders are quickly replaced.

Musharraf: Abu Faraj replaced Sheikh Khalid Muhammad. He was the chief of operations and there is a possibility that someone will replace him. I do not think all that is happening around the world is emerging from one source. And we know new people are being contracted.

SPIEGEL: Two attacks were made on you within a short space of time in December 2003. Have you cleared them up entirely?

Musharraf: In my case, the mastermind was Abu Faraj. He hired employees, a planner in the form of a man named Amjid Frooqi whom we have killed. This man got all the financing, explosives and weapons. This man went in search of a certain category of people in Pakistan, organisations whom I called extremists, the various Jeshes and Lashkars. He selected people and put them into action. So I presume this is how the operations take place.

SPIEGEL: These two assaults on your life happened in a short space of time. So the planners sought out different groups?

Musharraf: Yes, each group did not know about the other one. The people who attacked me on December 14, 2003 did not know the people who attacked me on the 26th.

SPIEGEL: Is al-Qaida also the leading force in Iraq?

Musharraf: I don't know, frankly. There are other organisations, after all, because it is all closely related with Palestine. Hamas is involved and Hizbollah is involved. It is all jumbled up.

SPIEGEL: Has Iraq got to be pacified in order to win the war on terrorism, as President Bush is calling for?

Musharraf: I would say that you need to pacify Palestine. This is the route. Any indirect strategy for Iraq or Afghanistan is through Palestine.

SPIEGEL: Premier Sharon has finally made up his mind to withdraw settlers and troops from Gaza. Mahmoud Abbas is trying hard to fulfil what he promised.

Musharraf: You say that Abbas is trying hard. But then Israelis also have to fulfil what they have to fulfil. That is how Muslims see the case.

SPIEGEL: Is the United States putting pressure on Israel?

Musharraf: During my interaction with President Bush, I really did not see any reason to doubt that this is the case. I told him that failure is no longer an option. And that he's got to coerce both Israelis and Palestinians.

SPIEGEL: Will Sharon succeed or will he be stopped by religious extremists?

Musharraf: He is a bold man, a great soldier, a courageous leader, but he needs to put more effort into building confidence between the two sides.

SPIEGEL: And if this peace process is successful, will the attitude in the Muslim world towards Israel and the West change?

Musharraf: In the Muslim world, the perception is that the Americans and the West have been pro-Israel. The Muslim world views them with suspicion -- that they are biased towards Israel. But I hope that we can bring about a just peace -- one which the Muslim world sees as just. If the European Union were to get involved, if Germany were to get involved, I am sure the Muslim world would see it much more positively.

SPIEGEL: Europe is getting involved in the peace process in the Middle East and in Iran as well. Do you think Iran should be allowed to go nuclear?

Musharraf: We are against any proliferation. We are against any other country developing nuclear devices.

SPIEGEL: Pakistan justified its going nuclear with the imbalance of power in South Asia after India had gone nuclear. Iran is setting out to break the monopoly of Israel in the Middle East.

Musharraf: But Iran doesn't have a border with Israel. We have a big border with India which is a real threat for us.